Head On VS. Snakes on a Plane!

You also keep disregarding my arguement that the Palestinian Jews that were present there since the 1920s would have fought their way without the help of the UN. Regardless of the UN playing any kind of hand in the creation of Israel, the Israelites would have secured their own country... As they have done numerous times in the past.

I don't think you understand that there were MANY Jewish people living in that area before the UN creation of a Jewish state. Also, many of the arabs in the area declared jihad on the allies during World War 2. Since we defeated the Axis powers, why not annex part of their land? We won after all...

Either way, the outcome was going to happen. The UN made it happen faster.

Said By Aron Schatz

You also keep disregarding my arguement that the Palestinian Jews that were present there since the 1920s would have fought their way without the help of the UN. Regardless of the UN playing any kind of hand in the creation of Israel, the Israelites would have secured their own country... As they have done numerous times in the past.

I don't think you understand that there were MANY Jewish people living in that area before the UN creation of a Jewish state. Also, many of the arabs in the area declared jihad on the allies during World War 2. Since we defeated the Axis powers, why not annex part of their land? We won after all...

Either way, the outcome was going to happen. The UN made it happen faster.

Said By Pancakes

Now, if the Israelis had conquered the state through a war, it would be different. But they didn't. Most of this was settled in a political arena by countries who did and do not have anything to do with the situation there today

Even if you say it was going to happen that way, we will never know because no one gave it a chance to happen like that. I know that there were plenty of Palestinian Jews living there which is why it confuses me that there needed to be a Jewish state? Redraw a few borders and leave the Jews in charge and suddenly all the wrongs that were done to Jewish people over the war are fixed? Furthermore, fuck over a few arabian tribes and call it a day? And what do we tell them? "Shit happens." And then go on supporting our only ally (that we created) in the Middle-East by selling them weapons and then saying "you're sovereign, do what you want". It was a needless conflict that we had our hands in. It honestly seens a little reminiscent to me of the Belgians in parts of Africa like Rwanda. Whether the outcome would have been the same had there been a war at least there would have been a chance for inhabitants to defend their homes. It seems that what we did was add fuel to the fire.

I don't know, it just seems warped to me to say that this was an okay course of action and justifying it by "it would have happened anyway" is okay as well. I think that's a scary justification for anything because it leaves no room for other options and that's really all I'm talking about here. I think there were better options.

Said By Pancakes

Also, you seem to be confusing Israel and the way Israel was brought about with the Israelis. Now, if you could please quote in any of my posts where I stated that Israelis are the reason there is still a conflict between the Palestinians and the Israelis. I'm sure you'll find that my arguments focused on Israel as a country and the way it came to be furthermore, the way the situation was handled after it came to be. Sorry, aphreman, not everyone who doesn't agree with you is a terrorist. And not everyone who doesn't agree with you is suddenly a genocidal racist.

Now, if the Israelis had conquered the state through a war, it would be different. But they didn't. Most of this was settled in a political arena by countries who did and do not have anything to do with the situation there today.

As for the sunni's and the shi'ites (because I assume you were talking about the shi'ites) you are right, they would still be killing each other. But that's another discussion entirely and has nothing to do with the Israel-Palestine conflict. And the Kurds? You know as I recall the Kurds had it pretty good in northern Iraq until we came in. You know, the whole, Saddam only being allowed in the central part of his country thing? They were fine with that.

The fact of the matter, aphreman, is that my annoyance with Israel is due to the current conflict it created which is stated many times through out this thread. Now if you want to talk about peace in the middle east as a whole, I will be glad to do so but you should let me know because you kind of switch it up when you're supposed to be talking about the Israel-Palestine conflict.

Aron's Representing for his peeps so I'm just going to defend the Kurds.

From Wikipedia, and also soon from Saddam's trial:

"On March 16, 1988, the Kurdish town of Halabja was attacked with a mix of mustard gas and nerve agents, killing 5,000 civilians, and maiming, disfiguring, or seriously debilitating 10,000 more. (see Halabja poison gas attack) [16]. The attack occurred in conjunction with the 1988 al-Anfal campaign designed to reassert central control of the mostly Kurdish population of areas of northern Iraq and defeat the Kurdish peshmerga rebel forces. The United States maintains that Saddam ordered the attack to terrorize the Kurdish population in northern Iraq ([17]), but Saddam's regime claimed at the time that Iran was responsible for the attack.[5]"

"Iraq's ethnic and religious divisions, together with the resulting postwar devastation, laid the groundwork for new rebellions within the country. In the aftermath of the fighting, social and ethnic unrest among Shi'a Muslims, Kurds, and dissident military units threatened the stability of Saddam's government. Uprisings erupted in the Kurdish north and Shi'a southern and central parts of Iraq, but were ruthlessly repressed. In 2005 the BBC reported that as many as 30,000 persons had been killed during the 1991 uprisings [19]."

"On June 30, 2004, Saddam Hussein (held in custody by U.S. forces at Camp Cropper in Baghdad), and 11 senior Ba'athist officials were handed over legally (though not physically, as there is, at present, no adequate Iraqi prison to hold them) to the interim Iraqi government to stand trial for war crimes, crimes against humanity, and genocide. Particular attention will be paid to his activities in violent campaigns against the Kurds in the north during the Iran-Iraq War, and against the Shiites in the south in 1991 and 1999 to put down revolts."

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/11/27/sproject.irq.kurds/

Said By CNN.com

Two rival Kurdish factions -- the Kurdistan Democratic Party (KDP) and the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan (PUK) -- have been in control in much of northern Iraq since the end of the Gulf War, though their relationship has often been contentious. A 1998 agreement brokered by the United States sought to bring the two factions closer.

Said By CNN.com

The Kurd territory is off-limits to the Iraqi military

Said By CNN.com

Kurds in northern Iraq -- unlike residents of the other 90 percent of the country -- can read dozens of newspapers reflecting a wide variety of opinion. They can watch satellite television, surf the Web at Internet cafes and make international phone calls with less government monitoring than Iraqis in other parts of the country.

Life certainly wasn't easy for them but I would venture to say through what small form of self-government they had, that they had it a lot better than Saddam-controlled Iraq.

Anyway, what was that supposed to prove, if anything? We are not talking about Iraq?

Said By Pancakes

Said By CNN.com

Two rival Kurdish factions -- the Kurdistan Democratic Party (KDP) and the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan (PUK) -- have been in control in much of northern Iraq since the end of the Gulf War, though their relationship has often been contentious. A 1998 agreement brokered by the United States sought to bring the two factions closer.

Said By CNN.com

The Kurd territory is off-limits to the Iraqi military

Said By CNN.com

Kurds in northern Iraq -- unlike residents of the other 90 percent of the country -- can read dozens of newspapers reflecting a wide variety of opinion. They can watch satellite television, surf the Web at Internet cafes and make international phone calls with less government monitoring than Iraqis in other parts of the country.

Life certainly wasn't easy for them but I would venture to say through what small form of self-government they had, that they had it a lot better than Saddam-controlled Iraq.

Anyway, what was that supposed to prove, if anything? We are not talking about Iraq?

You made light of yet another Genocide. I thought I should correct you on it. I suppose this all proves that if you have an arguement with a stump, the stump doesn't move but you get frustrated.

I guess so, especially when the only arguments made are "U SUPPOR GEN000C11D3 HIPPIE!!!11OENONEBUSH4YLFFEE".

But honestly, were you really trying to change my opinion? Because attacking me was not the way to do it. If anything that only drives some one to dig their heels in deeper. Furthermore, we definately have a difference in political and social backgrounds so I think that would have something to do with our different views on this. That shouldn't mean that we shouldn't be able to discuss our views. However, just between you and me, there hasn't been too much of a discussion. We were leaning toward one toward the end there and then... nothing.

EDIT: Also, I never made 'light' of the genocide that occured to the Jewish people. I said that giving them a country was not a way to right that wrong, especially doing it the way they did. And as for the Kurds, like I have stated and is shown in that CNN article you generously provided, after Saddam lost control of Northern Iraq they had it a lot better than most people living in Iraq. But like I said, Iraq and Israel don't have anything to do with each other but I have a feeling if we were to discuss this war there would be a similar outcome. Doesn't mean I'm not willing, I'm just putting it out there. You can decide.

Oh well. Bigons?

Said By Pancakes

I guess so, especially when the only arguments made are "U SUPPOR GEN000C11D3 HIPPIE!!!11OENONEBUSH4YLFFEE".

But honestly, were you really trying to change my opinion? Because attacking me was not the way to do it. If anything that only drives some one to dig their heels in deeper. Furthermore, we definately have a difference in political and social backgrounds so I think that would have something to do with our different views on this. That shouldn't mean that we shouldn't be able to discuss our views. However, just between you and me, there hasn't been too much of a discussion. We were leaning toward one toward the end there and then... nothing.

EDIT: Also, I never made 'light' of the genocide that occured to the Jewish people. I said that giving them a country was not a way to right that wrong, especially doing it the way they did. And as for the Kurds, like I have stated and is shown in that CNN article you generously provided, after Saddam lost control of Northern Iraq they had it a lot better than most people living in Iraq. But like I said, Iraq and Israel don't have anything to do with each other but I have a feeling if we were to discuss this war there would be a similar outcome. Doesn't mean I'm not willing, I'm just putting it out there. You can decide.

Oh well. Bigons?

Insulting people makes them dig their heels in, and usually gets them at their nastiest.

Again, from wikipedia:

"The first historical record of the word "Israel" comes from an Egyptian stele documenting military campaigns in Canaan. Although this stele which referred to a people (the determinative for 'country' was absent) is dated to approximately 1211 BCE, [4] Jewish tradition holds that the Land of Israel has been a Jewish Holy Land and Promised land for 3,000 years. The land of Israel holds a special place in Jewish religious obligations, encompassing Judaism's most important sites — including the remains of the First and Second Temples of the Jewish King, Solomon. Connected with these two versions of the temple are religiously significant rites which stand as the origin for many aspects of modern Judaism. [5] Starting around the 11th century BCE the first of a series of Jewish kingdoms and states established intermittent rule over the region that lasted more than a millennium.

Under Assyrian, Babylonian, Persian, Greek, Roman, Byzantine, and (briefly) Sassanian rule, Jewish presence in the region dwindled because of mass expulsions. In particular, the failure of the Bar Kochba Revolt against the Roman Empire in 132 CE resulted in a large-scale expulsion of Jews. It was during this time that the Romans gave the name Syria Palaestina to the geographic area, in an attempt to erase Jewish ties to the land.[6] The Mishnah and Jerusalem Talmud, two of Judaism's most important religious texts, were composed in the region during this period. The Muslims conquered the land from the Byzantine Empire in 638 CE. The area was ruled by various Muslim states (interrupted by the rule of the Crusaders) before becoming part of the Ottoman Empire in 1517."

On Iraq: Yeah, as of late the Kurds were doing semi-ok all things considered. They're worse off now because of all the in-fighting that's going on in Iraq. All the various factions that hate each other because of ethnic or religious differences are really going at it right now, something that didn't happen under Saddam because of the brutal regime he had. One can't help but think, maybe that's how things have to be in order to keep the peace in Iraq? Maybe it's like the Aztecs, they ruled through fear as well. Whether or not his actions were justified (and I'm sorry, I can't believe all the brutality was needed. Rape rooms? Really? why not just Rape Tents?) they were diplorable. I personally think there's other places we could have liberated that would have been much wiser to go to. Sudan for one.

Really, where would Israel be if not for the land where they were before? At any rate, what does bitching and moaning do about the past? If I get food sickness from eating poorly prepared food, what good does it do to dwell on it and just moan and complain "Oh man I really shouldn't have eaten that food I wish the people who liberated me had given me better prepared food!"? Seems to me I should probably see a doctor or take some pepto bismol.

Palestine, Hezzbolah, et al are of the attitude "If life gives you lemons, thow those lemons at the person who gave them to you until they give you an orange like you asked for in the first place!" I just think maybe they should try being moderate and having some lemonade. It's fucking hot in the desert and lemonade is delicious after all.